|
Post by Ken D on Mar 25, 2013 15:50:54 GMT -5
There are several local players on the fence - either by choice or by accident. Who's coming back, and why?
|
|
|
Post by Marty Da Hungry Wolf on Mar 25, 2013 17:14:25 GMT -5
In all honesty (just from a selfish "NC State perspective"), I don't know and I don't care. I am VERY frustrated with the lack of personal accountability and responsibility I've been reading and hearing about since Friday afternoon, I am NOT one of those who thinks this is all (or even largely) on Mark Gottfried or any of the assistant coaches. For crying out loud, these are people who are 18 years old (in most EVERY case) when they ever step foot on campus. We have 18 year old men and women overseas in hostile areas serving our country in the military - these guys can't bring themselves to play hard in a freakin' basketball game for, what, 28 - 30 minutes?
Why is it the coach's responsibility to motivate the players? I've heard this until I'm about ready to wretch. Dammit, these guys are getting a FREE college education and some of them are just biding their time (1, 2, MAYBE 3 years) until they get drafted by a pro team and, if they sign, their signing bonus would be enough RIGHT THEN to put THEIR kids through college. They are getting FREE publicity worth MILLIONS when one considers their names being mentioned, but it would appear they care ONLY about their future NBA prospects than going out and busting their rears to play the game the right way and give it their all for the very people who make it possible for them to have this forum in the first place - the ticket buying public, the alumni, the fans, the donors, the ones who go to the games and cheer for these increasingly pampered, spoiled, kids. Jeezusaytch, shut your mouths and listen to what the coaches are telling you - THAT will make you much more marketable to an NBA franchise than your damn vertical jump, six days a week and twice on Sundays.
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Mar 25, 2013 18:28:12 GMT -5
To the extent Gottfried questioned his players' motivation and maturity, he sure didn't help their draft stock. I don't think anyone believes he was referring to either Howell or Wood, but they're seniors and won't be back anyway. It would not be a surprise if no State players leave early, though I'll bet Gottfried would just as soon not have to deal with Leslie anymore.
I'm still amazed that McAdoo stays as high as he does on mock draft lists. There is a point at which potential has to be backed up with achievement. Despite his height, this kid plays like a small forward, which is where he would have to play as a pro. There are a lot of guys out there with better SF skills than he has. I think he needs a year to start showing toughness and grit to NBA scouts.
Sulaimon is, IMO, the most likely local kid to jump early.
|
|
|
Post by Marty Da Hungry Wolf on Mar 25, 2013 21:05:16 GMT -5
I've seen and heard a lot that the pros draft on potential and, to a large extent, I do think that's true.
That's why I think the NBA is actually hurting itself with the current draft rules and, in my opinion, they are actually discriminatory against American kids (as I understand the rule, anyway). High school senior cares ONLY about basketball. Good life plan? No, but it is what it is. NBA currently requires him to be out of high school for one year (or at least a year beyond when his class WOULD HAVE graduated) before he is eligible to be drafted, hence the "one and done" phenomenon. Who isn't subject to that rule? The foreign player. One more reason why I think the NBA would actually be better served to adopt the baseball rule, where a kid can declare out of high school, get drafted, and sign a contract if he/his parent(s)/guardian(s) so desire; and more power to him. If, however, he's in class the first day of the fall semester at the college of his choice, he's not eligible to be drafted for three more years.
The NBA would get many more mature people and BETTER basketball players in their league, the quality of college basketball would increase exponentially, the players that ONLY cared about basketball could put all their eggs in that basket and take their best shot (no pun intended). Otherwise, the players would at least have some good preparation for life after college AND basketball. Don't see a losing side in that scenario.
Locally, C.J. (Calvin, whatever) Leslie has all of the potential in the world as a basketball player, he's a fairly good ball handler for such a tall kid, he's quick, he can run and jump with most anyone and, who knows, he may not quite be done growing. His downside is maturity, passion, work ethic, and decision-making. Lorenzo Brown is quick AND fast (a good combination in a guard), but in his own estimation (and rightly so) he's not a good shooter (he CAN get streaky), he has a tendency to miss from the FT line in crunch time and, for all of his ability and savvy, his decision-making leaves something to be desired. Richard Howell, much like James Michael McAdoo in my opinion, is a classic "tweener", too short to be a power forward, not good enough from the outside to be a small forward, but Richard Howell has HEART and GUTS and DESIRE and WORK ETHIC and he's the main reason State went as far as they went this year, hate think what this year would've deteriorated to without him. Scott Wood, I don't believe, will make much of a dent in the NBA; he's too easy to guard and he won't be able to defend quicker and bigger 2's or 3's night after night.
I don't follow Carolina, I think McAdoo has potential but I would defer to you or someone who watches them more for a better evaluation of his pro prospects. Hairston has pro potential, he's got really good range on his jump shot and he's got a better NBA body type than somebody like Wood. Bullock looks "O.K.", but I don't know about him as a long-term NBA player.
For Duke, I might give Plumlee a chance to stick somewhere as a bench player, Curry might have a shot (see his older brother), Sulaimon (hope I spelled his name right) looks to have a shot due to his quickness and multi-dimensional ability.
You might be right, Ken, re: Gottfried but here's the rub with Leslie (as it's always been, and pardon me if I have to take a break to hurl while I'm typing this): When he's on, he's ON. Passing, hustling, rebounding, effort, it's all there. When's not ENGAGED, he's just taking a roster spot. How can there be such a WIDE range of possibilities with ONE player?!?!?! I understand having a bad game, and I don't think he HAS to get 25 pts, 15 rebs, 8 assists, and 5 blocks a game but anybody that CAN do that seemingly at will shouldn't also possess the capability to put up 3, 2, 0 and 0 with 5 turnovers and 4 fouls just because they're not "feeling it".
Bilas said it best when ESPN was at State for GameDay: it's great for State to beat Duke on National TV when Duke is undefeated and #1, that's fantastic, it shows the capability of this team. However, they completely lose whatever they gained by beating Duke when they turn right around and lose against Maryland and Wake. Better to lose to Duke and beat those TWO than not. You have to beat the teams you're SUPPOSED to beat. They beat Carolina, and then what? Three straight losses. Did I enjoy the Carolina game in Raleigh? Yes, the first 28 minutes anyway. Which speaks to the final, biggest, and most consistent problem for this team all season - they did NOT put it all together for a full game with the exception, in my opinion, of the Duke and Miami games in Raleigh, which proves MANY people's points for years. State's worst habit is playing to the level of their competition - THAT is immaturity and a lack of leadership, and I am NOT talking about the coaching staff.
Kind of like blaming the kindergarten teacher for your kid not being potty-trained.
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Mar 26, 2013 8:15:30 GMT -5
Kind of like blaming the kindergarten teacher for your kid not being potty-trained. You got that right, Marty. While high school seniors aren't yet fully mature, a large part of their personality and work ethic has been established by then. A coach can only do so much to change that. One of the tools a coach has to improve attitude is bench time. When your team is already only seven players deep, and fan expectations are high, there is only so much you can do with that tool. Now, a part of that is recruiting. Because of the history at places like Duke and Carolina, they can afford to recruit the kids that have both the talent and the intangibles. Where that tradition doesn't already exist, or has been lost, it's a lot harder to be choosy in a profession that insists on winning quickly. Coaches no longer have the luxury of building a program slowly. If a young Coach K were being hired today, he would not have lasted long enough to make that breakthrough. It can be a tough call. If CJ were a high school senior today, would Gottfried recruit him? Would K?
|
|
|
Post by mattncsu02 on Mar 27, 2013 21:28:32 GMT -5
I have a feeling that C.J. is gone, and Lorenzo is probably gone too. I saw where Warren was possibly thinking about going, which in my opinion would be a horrible idea. He needs some more time. I read that Gott has been recruiting with the anticipation of Leslie and Brown leaving after this year. I've thought this entire year that Pack Nation won't see what Gott can really do with this team until all of Lowe's players have moved on and the bench is full of his recruits. We'll see. I still love my Pack, but I would love to se them live up to expectations sooner than later. I'm like Marty when it comes to Carolina. I really don't give a rats behind who goes or stays with them. No offense to the Carolina fans on here. I don't see anybody leaving early from Duke. Sulaimon would do okay I think, but I bet he stays. The biggest thing I'm worried about is the rumor that Gottfried is on the list of potentials for the UCLA job. I really, really think a coaching change right now would set the Pack back big time. C'mon Mark, stay in Raleigh big guy!
|
|
|
Post by mattncsu02 on Mar 27, 2013 22:17:25 GMT -5
From Twitter: @mark_Gottfried: I am committed to being at @ncstate for a long time Still as dedicated to rebuilding the program as I was 2 yrs ago.
Whew!
Also just saw where Brown's mother said he's declaring for the draft. Nothing unexpected there.
|
|
cuss
Recruit
Posts: 38
|
Post by cuss on Mar 30, 2013 13:37:06 GMT -5
I have a feeling that C.J. is gone, and Lorenzo is probably gone too. I saw where Warren was possibly thinking about going, which in my opinion would be a horrible idea. He needs some more time. I read that Gott has been recruiting with the anticipation of Leslie and Brown leaving after this year. I've thought this entire year that Pack Nation won't see what Gott can really do with this team until all of Lowe's players have moved on and the bench is full of his recruits. We'll see. I still love my Pack, but I would love to se them live up to expectations sooner than later. I'm like Marty when it comes to Carolina. I really don't give a rats behind who goes or stays with them. No offense to the Carolina fans on here. I don't see anybody leaving early from Duke. Sulaimon would do okay I think, but I bet he stays. The biggest thing I'm worried about is the rumor that Gottfried is on the list of potentials for the UCLA job. I really, really think a coaching change right now would set the Pack back big time. C'mon Mark, stay in Raleigh big guy! Matt, I'm not offended by any of this because I'm not so much worried about what State or Duke is doing. I'm more worried about what Carolina is doing. I think McAdoo is leaving, but I can't see Bullock and Hairston leaving. I do agree with Marty about McAdoo. However, he's supposed to be a high draft pick, and maybe a lottery pick, but he got a lot of work, probably in the D league before he's going to be the type of player that can play in the NBA. I actually think Hairston, if he stays could be a lottery pick next year. So, he could be best served to hang around. I also agree with Marty about the way in which the NBA refuses to draft players out of high school but they don't mind taking the "one and done." I like the idea of the baseball rule also, and think colleges should apply that rule. Tizu, best of luck to your Dukies.
|
|
|
Post by cvholt87 on Mar 30, 2013 15:34:53 GMT -5
CJ has already told Gottfried he's leaving, I'm not real sure what the deal is with the hold up of his announcement. Warren and his dad are weighing their options and waiting to see who all decides to enter the draft. Gottfried has however made some progress with TJ is recent days in selling him on possibility of being a lottery pick next year. With Purvis there's about a 98% chance he never suits up for the Pack again. The ONLY thing keeping him from transferring is the fact that he'd have to sit out a year due to transfer rules. UConn is high up on his list of potential places to land.
With UNC, it looks like Bullock is the most likely to go but it has more to do with family obligations. McAdoo is kind of up in the air, but I'd wager theres a higher probability of him returning. PJ is staying.There's also a rumor of a potential transfer but I'm not sure who it is quite yet.
I don't know of anyone leaving Duke early but I'll find out when they get back to Durham. I know there were Alex Murphy transfer rumors floating around but I never got that vibe with him. He was over at my house in December and, quite honestly, he's a pretty impressive guy. Definitely has his head on his shoulders.
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Mar 30, 2013 16:24:57 GMT -5
Agree about Bullock. He has a son, and with his draft prospects better now than they would be in a stronger overall draft class, I think Williams would advise him to take the money.
If he does, Roy may well revert to his preferred style of play, which is more inside-out oriented. If Hicks is everything he is advertised to be, I could see a starting lineup of McAdoo and Hicks at power forward, Hairston and McDonald on the wings, and Paige at the point. That's not too shabby. Maybe not Final Four good, but ACC contender good.
In that scenario, Carolina's roster is relatively big man heavy, with six power forwards. It quickly becomes light at the wing positions, with only Simmons and Tokoto as backups. That's a big drop off.
The Heels would have 12 scholarship players if only Bullock leaves. I could see Hubert or James looking for more playing time elsewhere. But if some other draft scenario plays out, you could have a very different dynamic with this team.
|
|
cuss
Recruit
Posts: 38
|
Post by cuss on Mar 30, 2013 18:32:00 GMT -5
I'm hoping James can improve enough to play and Hubert can develop some kind of shot. I know it takes time to develop the big men. So, I don't really see Kennedy Meeks making a difference.
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Mar 30, 2013 18:45:38 GMT -5
I'm hoping James can improve enough to play and Hubert can develop some kind of shot. I suspect Roy is hoping the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by cvholt87 on Apr 1, 2013 13:28:49 GMT -5
As expected, Purvis is officially done at NC State per Joe Giglio. State's visitor this weekend, Desmond Lee, is now a HUGE priority. Lee is a guard out of New Mexico Junior College that the staff hopes will be able to fill Purvis' role until the 2014 class arrives.
|
|
|
Post by Tizu on Apr 1, 2013 14:33:47 GMT -5
CJ Leslie also declared for the draft.
I don't think anyone will leave early from Duke, they are already losing 3 seniors. Sulaimon hit a slump near the end, so I don't think his stock is very high. UNC, I can see Hairston and McAdoo...possibly Bullock too, but most likely just McAdoo will be gone. I wonder if Larson from Miami will go? I think he should.
|
|
|
Post by Marty Da Hungry Wolf on Apr 1, 2013 17:01:56 GMT -5
So long, farewell, best wishes, and thanks for everything to Lorenzo Brown, C.J. Leslie, and Rodney Purvis.
Moving on ...
Go Pack
|
|
|
Post by Tizu on Apr 2, 2013 6:42:51 GMT -5
The Purvis transfer shocks me a little...I guess that's what spoiled little brats do when they don't always get their way...
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Apr 2, 2013 8:58:17 GMT -5
I think I would say I'm more disappointed than shocked by Purvis' decision. Players transfer for all sorts of reasons. We may never really know what his reasons were. Some transfer because they don't expect to get playing time where they are. Clearly that isn't the case here. State is going to be even thinner next year. Some transfer because they are homesick, or want to be close enough that family and friends can watch them play. Purvis is a Raleigh kid - he's already home.
Some transfer for a chance to be part of a championship contender. Nobody sees that in State's immediate future. He could have played a part in building State up to that level. Now, he'll have to sit out a year wherever he goes, and he probably won't have nearly the choices he had coming out of high school. And I suppose some transfer because they think another school provides a surer path to the NBA. This last one is, IMO, the iffiest reason. I have a hard time remembering many players who made it in the NBA after transferring from one D-I school to another. Larry Bird is clearly the exception here, but Purvis ain't no Larry Bird.
Some speculation is making its way around cyberspace that Purvis does not want to play at the 2 spot. That he sees his only chance at the NBA as a point guard. When he signed on, Brown was State's PG, and he wasn't expected to stick around Raleigh for long. The door would soon be open for Purvis, who wouldn't likely have viewed Lewis as a serious threat to his PT. Then State signed Cat Barber, a five star true point guard, and Lewis proved he could handle the backup role admirably. Thin as State is, Gott would need to get minutes out of Purvis as a wing player, and Purvis didn't think that advanced his pro prospects.
Another issue bandied about on the web is the role Purvis' mother has played during his time at State. Here, I'm not sure if Purvis' decision is a sign of increased maturity or permanent immaturity. Maybe he resents his mother's interference as much as Gott does, and he is trying to get out from under her by moving farther away from home. Or, maybe she is still the one calling the shots here, and doesn't like the way Gott is using her little boy.
I tend to come down on the immaturity side. This is a kid who has led a sheltered and protected life. He was enrolled in a tiny religious school whose principal purpose is to shield its students from exposure to any religious or political beliefs different from those espoused by the sect that runs the church/school. Obedience and submissiveness were traits more admired than independence and assertiveness. I can't imagine what it must be like for a product of that environment to have to adjust to life on the campus of a major university and the spotlight that comes with it. I try to imagine which upperclassmen would take him under their wing and mentor him. None come to mind on this State team.
Gottfried has now been at State two seasons. He has had considerable success. He has recruited remarkably well. He has returned State to a place where they are part of the conversation about college hoops after a considerable absence. And now, at least partly because of transfers and early departures, he is already taking body blows from critics who question his coaching ability and his control over his players. State has to be the toughest place in the world to be a coach.
|
|
|
Post by Marty Da Hungry Wolf on Apr 2, 2013 10:29:24 GMT -5
Ken, in that regard I think you're absolutely right but your opinion is, in my opinion, incomplete.
State probably is one of the toughest places in the world to be a coach, especially in basketball, due to the behemoths down the road. I'm not gonna lie, Duke and Carolina are great programs with great histories, respect what they've accomplished immensely. I'm also not gonna get off on the whole selling shoes and tickets rant, but not only did we basically shut down the basketball program for about 20 years but by doing so we were then about 30-35 years behind the curve when it comes to Duke and UNC. Hannibal Lecter said it himself: "We covet what we see every day". Does this mean I (for one State fan) am "jealous" of Duke or UNC? No. I want State to get to where they are, not by Duke or UNC faltering but by State improving themselves. Therein lies the rub. Perception being 9/10 of the law and whatnot, "image" and "rumor" count more in this day and age of instant social media than at any previous time in history. If State sets goals, they're being irrational or (wretch) "delusional". If State doesn't set goals, they're "accepting mediocrity".
In my opinion, the last two years have been the most consistent and "promising" for State basketball since I fell for it when things started looking up under Sendek and, before that, the late 80's. You are most definitely correct when you say Mark Gottfried has returned State to a place where they are part of the conversation. Did they "underachieve" this year? Yeah, they did. Am I as a fan and alum disappointed? Yeah, I am.
I don't tie my sense of self-worth to the rising and falling fortunes of my school's sports teams - I like sports, they're fun, they're for entertainment (for me, anyway). I understand that for some of the kids - yes, again, KIDS - that play these games we all love so much, these games might be the best hope they have to get a profession that will provide them and their families with a good living. Again, not getting all into a rant about socio-economic factors, minimalization of classic family structures, etc.
It is, however, disappointing to me FOR THEM that they've allowed someone at some point in time to so badly cloud their minds that the friends, buddies, boys, homeys, peeps, whatevers along with the moms, dads, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. who have NEVER coached ANYTHING but think they've WATCHED enough of the sport that they KNOW they know more than coaches who have a combined couple of hundred years of experience in the sport in question, therefore the still-young KID gets his head all screwed up. Are there "bad" college-level coaches out there who do not care about the kids? Absolutely. I don't believe for one damn second, however, that Mark Gottfried is one of them. I wish him nothing but success, but I don't believe Rodney Purvis helped himself at all. I've heard both that he wants to be a point guard because that's where his greatest pro basketball potential lies and that he's leaving because he didn't get enough shots this PAST season. Well, which is it? Is he leaving because of his anticipated future or his can't-change-it-now past?
Immaturity, indeed. Ken, as usual brother, you're all over it.
|
|
|
Post by Ken D on Apr 2, 2013 11:35:40 GMT -5
Perception being 9/10 of the law and whatnot, "image" and "rumor" count more in this day and age of instant social media than at any previous time in history. If State sets goals, they're being irrational or (wretch) "delusional". If State doesn't set goals, they're "accepting mediocrity". You must be reading the crap on WRAL, Inside Carolina and places of that ilk. You've been warned about that. I can only hope that the people who matter at State - like the chancellor, the AD, the coaches, etc - pay no attention to it. It's just smack talk, and not very clever smack talk at that. That being said, you'd like to think that the goal setters at your favorite institution aren't, in fact, deluded. If you are at a school like ECU, and you state year after year that your goal is to win a national championship in basketball, the label of "delusional" fits, and you are going to deserve most of the derision that will come your way. Frankly, I think the same could be said if any of the Triangle football programs believed they should be competing for the national championship on a yearly basis. But it's certainly not true of their basketball programs. Why shouldn't they aspire to be champions in that sport? But every year? I don't believe Carolina's goal for this year was a national championship. Williams is smart enough to realize he didn't have the horses following the exodus of the core of last year's team. Does that mean he "accepted mediocrity"? Or that he was being realistic? State's situation may be unique in all of college basketball. Where else are there three schools within a half an hour of each other competing at this level? Where many of their fans work in the same space between them, and meet at the water cooler every day? Smack is going to happen. It's inescapable.
|
|
|
Post by Marty Da Hungry Wolf on Apr 2, 2013 16:22:28 GMT -5
Oh no, I don't believe it's the administration at the school by any means. And, yes, I admit I'm busted - I do still read over to the RAL some, I need to start slow before I come here and actually have to use my brain. Us old poots have to warm up before exertion, lest we pull something we might need. In all seriousness, while I didn't have a problem with Chuck Amato (or Chancellor Fox, for that matter) saying it was the goal to win a National Championship at NC State, I wasn't running out making travel plans for the BCS title game but, really, shouldn't that be "the goal"? I mean, if you're competing in something shouldn't your stated goal be to be the best at it? Isn't that the point of competing? Now, saying you ARE GOING TO WIN a title is a horse of a different color; however, I don't believe either of those people ever said that and I know of absolutely ZERO fans, including myself, who thought it WOULD happen. But didn't V teach us the importance of dreams? What's wrong with dreaming big? It doesn't make me mad, it's just funny to me - very recently, Scott Van Pelt of ESPN gave a radio podcast ( espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=9104501) proclaiming the Wolfpack Nation (as "voted on" by the public or other media members, apparently) as THE most delusional fanbase in the country. While I will refrain from taking any potshots at him being a bitter Maryland alum, I take exception YET AGAIN with him saying State GOT RID OF HERB SENDEK. We did NOT. We chose not to match a ridiculous offer that Arizona State made to him. More power to him and ASU, but we chose not to match their offer. That is NOWHERE CLOSE to "getting rid of" someone. I ask anyone - who's more "deluded" there? The school that chose not to match an offer that was over-market price for the total quality and results of the prospective employee or the national media members who CONTINUE TO THIS DAY to erroneously report that NC State got rid of Herb Sendek? THEN, he followed it up by commenting about the media (YES, DAMMIT, THE MEDIA) picking State's basketball team to win the ACC this season and yet they finished 5th, thereby "you don't even get a bye in your own conference tournament". Once again, how is that the fault of the fanbase? What say does the fanbase have in a preseason media poll? Holy crap, Ken - as a State fan, that kind of stuff right there is where people like me start losing it a bit. Yes, we're State fans. Yes, our team was picked to finish 1st. Yes, our team finished 5th. No, we never said anything in particular was going to happen. And if anybody wants to quote any single fan of any single fanbase and thereby make that one fan's opinion the representative voice of the entire fanbase, there's no such thing as arguing common sense with an idiot like that; they'll twist and spin any PIECE of information or data for their own agenda, no matter if it's out of context or not. For bonus points, Van Pelt then decided to jump on Tom O'Brien's firing as well. Once again, the AD is the one that pulled the trigger there, not the fans. Were fans unhappy or dissatisfied? Yeah, probably some. Did I want them to do better? Sure I did. However, I wasn't embarrassed by my football coach, players, support staff, or university professors like some other school(s) SHOULD be if they would be truly honest with themselves (and the rest of us). Again, not all of the fans are of that mindset, but some are. Waaaaaay at the end of the podcast, he does EVENTUALLY get around to admitting that State didn't actually fire Sendek, but he sure as hell let it dangle long enough. For someone who doesn't know better (hmm, a potential recruit maybe?), that makes it seem like NC State THE SCHOOL is running around insisting on being undefeated and winning championships each and every single season, and nothing could be further from the truth. We want to be COMPETITIVE. PERIOD. As fans, we like players with talent and ability, sure - we also like players that have discipline and, most importantly of all, HEART. If wanting THAT in a basketball player that I'm asked to support with my time and hard-earned money makes me "delusional", then yes - I guess I'm delusional. As far as smack talk goes, yeah I can take it. No problem - your team beats my team in the big game, talk all the smack you wanna talk. The onslaught of crap posted by the inmates running the asylum that is RAL is so far removed from "smack talk", it's not even funny. And that's what I was getting at earlier, yes it was. If State fans want wins and championships, we're delusional. If we keep quiet and let's try to see what happens, we're accepting mediocrity. That's not smack talk, that's retarded stupidity. And saying it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again and again and again and again doesn't make it any truer than the first time it's said, it just makes it retardedly stupid. Reasonable expectations are reasonable, but there's nothing wrong at all with wanting and hoping for championships. As a "fan", isn't that what we're supposed to do?
|
|